Dear Anthony,
I am dating a woman I met on AMS that I am very attracted to. The problem is, I think I am lusting after her. I don’t want to but I can’t help it. She dresses in a way that I should probably have a problem with. I like it and hate it at the same time. Why is that? And what should I do about it? I am worried that I might not find her as attractive if she dressed differently.
I am very happy to see you struggle with this. That shows that you have a desire for truth. That’s good.
You are very vague about your dilemma, since you do not cite any examples about exactly how this woman dresses. But I can guess what you are talking about. I have had many men contact me about the struggle they have with the way the Catholic woman he is dating dresses.
Modesty is not so much about clothes as it is about intent. It’s not so much what is worn, but how it is worn and the attitude that goes along with the presentation.
Don’t get me wrong. Certain clothing is objectively immodest. But for a woman to be immodest, she must be at risk of looking provocative. So a woman who is not trying to be immodest, or believes that, in fact, she is not being immodest, can still be objectively immodest by the fact that certain clothing she is wearing presents her in a way that compels being noticed by men.
To lust after a woman is to desire her in a sexual, physical, and inappropriate way. A man desiring to have sex with a woman he is simply looking at is, by definition, lust. It is a man’s responsibility to practice self-control and self-mastery in order to not be inclined to lust after a woman. Plenty of modestly dressed women are beautiful and desirable looking. A woman cannot be made to take full blame for a man desiring her.
Christian men are legitimately frustrated that they are exposed to women who are dressed provocatively. Certain clothes on certain body types are going to be eye catching. Women know this, and sorry to say, they have enough vanity at times to enjoy it. It’s natural for a woman to want to be noticed and considered beautiful. I highly doubt, however, that you can find a Christian woman who would say she is happy if a man lusts after her.
The dilemma is you have Christian women who live in a culture where they can get away with dressing all kinds of ways without knowing a fine line between modesty and immodesty, and men who have the problem you expressed; namely of loving it and hating it at the same time. How can they not love seeing a girl dressed very noticeably? (I refuse to use the word “hot,” but I’m sure many of you are thinking that is what I mean, and rightly so.) But at the same time, he feels bad for being so seemingly shallow (or maybe he doesn’t think of that part at all).
The truth is, the clothes are not the only contributor, nor the worst of it. Also contributing to the outward appearance is makeup and hair style. And the worst of it is the attitude behind the appearance.
A woman may wear a dress that exposes her body, like a dress that is sleeveless, and shows her legs and knees. How she does her hair and makeup, and how she conducts herself in that dress can make the difference between modesty and immodesty. Even a woman in a pair of jeans and a long sleeve sweater can look provocative if she conducts herself in a manner that is meant to turn men’s heads.
I saw the movie “We Bought A Zoo,” which has the actress Scarlet Johansson in it. She gets a lot of hype as being quite the gorgeous and sexy woman. In this movie, however, she was hardly anything close to that. She was not unattractive, but she surely was not sexy. She was pretty, but surely not “wowing.” Her character in “He’s Just Not That Into You” is totally about using her sex appeal to attract men.
The point is, a beautiful (even sexy) woman can successfully and quite easily conduct herself in a way which does not lure the eyes of men, nor stir their minds to impure or lustful thoughts. In fact, a Christian woman should avoid doing any such thing. They should be aware of what clothes they wear, and how their hairstyle and makeup combine with their clothes. And they should definitely not have an intent to get noticed, via the way they walk, talk, or look at men.
All of these things contribute to immodesty. It cannot be about how much flesh is showing. How you conduct yourself publicly is also a contributor to immodesty.
Perhaps it sounds like I am saying that Christian women should hide their beauty and dress frumpy and wear no makeup. On the contrary. A pretty woman can be a pretty woman without flaunting herself. Women must be honest with themselves about their vanity. Many women have a strong temptation to vanity that leads to immodesty. True humility will allow a beautiful woman to admit her outward appeal potential and act accordingly in the name of the Lord.
Too many woman act in the name of themselves and tell others to just deal with it. This is not a Christian attitude. Women must consider the effect they might have on men and be careful about their outward presentation and conduct.
A good Christian man does not want a woman he lusts after. He might deceive himself in thinking he wants a “hot” woman. Those are not good Christian men. What he wants is a modest woman who conducts herself in a manner befitting her faith, respectful of the one man who is the only man she wants to have admire her and have her in any sensual way. She does not seek to purposely parade herself to the general male populace. A man wants to know that she cares only that he desires her, not anyone else.
A woman can be modest and still look very classy and elegant, not trampy and seductive. She can be beautiful without every man wanting her. She can dress in clothing that compliments her body, without showing it off. She can behave in all ways that show she is self confident in her looks, without assuming her looks are to be noticed and admired by all.
Modesty starts with the love of God and being thankful for how God made you. It grows in an attitude of charity about how to present and conduct yourself. Modesty in dating and courtship allows a woman to use her looks and charms to win the heart of one man, and is extremely careful to make him comfortable and secure that her looks are only for him.
If you are worried about how you lust after this woman you and are concerned that you might not be attracted to her if she dresses differently, then I am guessing you have a problem on your hands that might end the relationship if not addressed. You can’t force her to change, but you can have a good conversation about modesty and share what you are experiencing by being with her. Not matter how it ends up, communicating about such things is always the best approach.
See “dating a Pharisee” blog post on Dec 6th for the girl’s most probable reaction to this “conversation.”
Another option for the guy in this situation is telling her you like the skirt/shirt/whatever when she does dress modestly and otherwise use the good old Catholic school “thank God for her beauty when you are attracted, and look at her face.”
I don’t agree with everything this article says. Whether you have a good attitude or not, if you are dressed inmodestly, you are being inmodest in all sense of the word and you are being provocative and inviting others to sin; and it is a sin regardless, let’s call it for what it is.
I don’t agree that a woman doesn’t know when she is dressed inapropriatedly. Every woman knows, when she looks at herself in the mirror, before leaving her house, if she should dress like that or not. I am a woman and I know in my heart if I am dressed inmodestly or not.
God gave us all a concience to guide us, but many times we quiet that concience with many excuses even though in the bottom we know it’s wrong. I think some might jump on me for saying this, but it’s the truth.
In the Bible there is a passage where St Paul specifically explains how we women, Christian Women, should dress.
In regards to this man’s concern, I personally wonder if you really love this woman. A change in her dress to be modest shouldn’t change your love for her if there is any.
I suggest you see or read some of Jason and Crystalina Evert’s writing in this regard. You can google it and will find lots of valuable information.
I think his blog post does say that there is clothing unambiguosly immodest. He also adds that all the other clothing that may not be immodest can become immodest when combined with a “fatal woman” make up and attitude.
Mary’s post is correct in stating that conscience does tell us when we are doing wrong, but we silence it with excuses
I think it’s hard for women too because so many women do dress immodestly that it is hard to attract men at all if you dress in a way that is modest and you don’t happen to be incredibly beautiful or attractive. Good Catholic men say they want a modest woman, but the only men who ever ask me out are agnostics, which makes me wonder who is seeing me as a person, the Catholics or the agnostics? And shouldn’t it be the Catholics?
I agree Mary.
SHe_who_must… you have touched on a very interesting idea and that is the problem all good women today have whether they be Catholics or women of another faith, or even women who don’t believe in anything but who don’t contracept, sleep around, party hard, or dress immodestly. These women aren’t being chosen because there is no need for most men to choose them. There is no social cost (as there use to be) to choosing a good woman – in fact, I would venture that there is a negative cost for men in choosing a good Catholic/Christian woman. These women require a man of leadership and moral and social courage. Most men aren’t up to the task today or perhaps in many cases, just not interested.
I don’t blame men for this. I blame women, especially the feminist movement which seems to view liberated woman as someone who has the “choice” to flaunt her sexuality. :(
I also agree with both Mary’s although to the second Mary I say that some women actually do not understand modesty and the effect of their lack of it on men. I know women who are like this. But like the second Mary, I also wonder about the man’s motivation in writing this question. He can be a great influence on his girlfriend. Many girls wear clothes to please their guy. A girl will pick up on the signals he sends. So complement her on those clothes that are less revealing and even go window shopping and mention items you think are cool (but modest!).
Feminist movement surely has its own guilt. However, men who are Christian, who nevertheless use “sensual attraction” as the first point of entry have their own guilt. They are not powerless uncontrollable beings, they are men with self control.
Women aren’t to blame for men’s sins. You can’t be to blame for something someone else does. If a woman does something that leads a man to sin, then she is to blame for what she did, but he is still to blame for choosing to sin and for any sin he allowed himself to commit.
I agree that this guy could probably be a good influence on the woman he’s dating if he played his cards right. Let’s pray for them.
Hi, I agree that consciences can sometimes be “quieted,” but in other cases blindness caused by ignorance and poor examples can be the more significant factor. I guess that’s why we have many before- and after-communion prayers with petitions such as “Lord, enlighten my blindness,” or “Lord, that I may see.”
Due to cultural and family influences, some young women may have more of a challenge in learning about modesty, especially when their role models, peers, and parents dress and act immodestly.
I have become much better informed about what modesty involves after doing some theology of the body-related readings, research on respected Catholic Internet sites, doing some spiritual reading, etc. Education chases away that ignorance…
I don’t think this type of information could be described as very widely available though (it seems one does have to hunt a bit for it), which is why articles such as the one above are so valuable (thanks, Anthony!).
There does seem to be a renewed interest in modesty among many Catholic women. I’ve even noticed some retreats/women’s conferences that have special sessions or talks on modesty. It seems that the trend is growing.
Maybe we could help each other become better informed by sharing resources. Michelle Arnold (Catholic Forums apologist) recommends Pure Womanhood by Crystalina Evert. Teresa Tomeo’s All Things Girl series (written for teens) includes books that directly address fashion and modesty from a Catholic perspective. There’s also a good article by Monsignor Charles M. Mangan that can be searched for over the Internet titled The Forgotten Virtue: Modesty in Dress.
Perhaps determining what to say to a woman who dresses in a provocative manner can be based on the intention of the speaker. Is the intention to change her behavior, or to change circumstances so that lust is no longer provoked? The outward manifestation would be the same for each, but the spirit behind it would be different.
For example: in trying to change her behavior a person might say “You dress provocatively, so I have a hard time not lusting after you, and it makes me uncomfortable.” In this case, blame is assigned to the woman, and it is likely she will feel offended, regardless of the veracity of the statement.
To change the circumstance it might be better to say, “I’m pretty visually oriented, and sometimes I have difficulty focusing on -you- rather than your body.” This brings up the problem in a non-confrontational way, and lets her feel that she is valued for more than sexual appeal, something that is difficult to find in modern American society.
Great responses…however I think that only half of the equation has been addressed adequately. Yes, women need to be more conscious of how they dress and how they present themselves. and YES men need to learn more about the lust of the eyes. That is a man’s struggle. Even if a woman is dressed modestly, it will not stop a man from lusting with his eyes. If a man is seeking to be a man of God, then he must strive to get himself under control. Lets say all goes well and this couple gets married, what happens when another girl who is dressed provocatively comes along? In our society, that is likely to happen (and has already happened) every two seconds. What will the man do then if he does not have this issue under control? The world is not full of modestly dressed women or Catholic women. The girl this man is dating is only a small part of his problem, and one that is the most easily addressed (hopefully). Most of us women can say that regardless of how we are dressed, we have been approached inappropriately by men. I refuse to say that is always my fault, but I will say that is how we are being trained by media and society. I can’t make that an excuse. Each one of us needs to address our issues as we are presented with them: women-wanting to be seen as beautiful, and men-lusting after what they see. Please let us not let society and the media dictate that for us as Catholic men and women. Let us be transformed by he renewing of our minds for we belong to the Lord.
I really affirm the second Mary’s post. There are actual standards known as “The Marylike Way of Dress” that one can research. True modesty would not allow anything sleeveless or showing the knees. Dresses should go below the knees, and pants are also not recommened – they are masculine dress.
I really like Michelle Arnold’s October 2011 post in the Forums page on the Catholic Answers Web site entitled “How do we imitate the Blessed Mother in dress?”
She responds elegantly to the question, giving consideration to cultural differences among other things.
DS, I couldn’t find the post, is it still up?
An interesting fact in the whole “pants are masculine so girls shouldn’t wear them” dispute is that St. Joan of Arc was prosecuted by the English for “immodest Dressing” (wearing armor, pants, and men’s clothing her army camp). She attempted to explain that the (men’s) clothing she wore was more modest then a dress because she while in the camp she did not want to be approached as a women, but as a general. This same argument could be made for any woman choosing to wear pants, particularly in the work place.
“While we are on the subject of dress and its relevance to the problem of modesty and immodesty it is worth drawing attention to the functional significance of differences in attire. There are certain objective situations in which even total nudity of the body is not immodest, since the proper function of nakedness in this context is not to provoke a reaction to the person as an object for enjoyment, and in just the same way the functions of particular forms of attire may vary. Thus, the body may be partially bared for physical labour, for bathing, or for a medical examination. If then we wish to pass a moral judgement on particular forms of dress we have to start from the particular functions which they serve. When a person uses such a form of dress in accordance with its objective function we cannot claim to see anything immodest in it, even if it involves partial nudity. Whereas the use of such a costume outside its proper context is immodest, and is inevitably felt to be so. For example, there is nothing immodest about the use of a bathing costume at a bathing place, but to wear it in the street or while out for a walk is contrary to the dictates of modesty.”
— from Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla